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Greg
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 219
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: PC8 scale display? |
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I've been playing around with PC8 for a day now, and generally find I like all the improvements. One feature however which I find curious is the loss of some of the items in the Status Window of previous versions. Most of the items have moved elsewhere:
Nudge amount and object count to the window toolbar.
Edit all was already duplicated in the Layer window.
Go To layer is better implemented as a contextual menu.
But where are the drawing scale and %zoom?
I have never particularly used the %zoom (although it is sort of handy to see when you are at actual size), but I use the scale all the time.
If you have several details on a page of different scales, it seems to me important to know what the scale setting is as you switch from one detail to another. Is there no visual feedback as to what scale you have set? Perhaps a display in the window toolbar?
Am I missing something?
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huc
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 660
Location: ::caddpower.com:: (Aurora, CO)
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If you have several details on a page of different scales, it seems to me important to know what the scale setting is as you switch from one detail to another. Is there no visual feedback as to what scale you have set? Perhaps a display in the window toolbar? |
If details are at different scales then Layer Scales is the logical way to organize that content -- the Layers Window displays the scale assigned to a layer as visual feedback. When hopping back and forth between layers / details, having the Layers Window open seems just as, or more, convenient that the old Status Window
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I hope that helps
Cheers
Brian |
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Greg
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 219
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Brian,
That is certainly one way of working, though I often organize a drawing more by line weights, so some of the same layers can function on details at different scales. The only layers I usually assign scales are dimension layers so that my dimensions don't accidentally get re-assigned at the wrong scale.
Using the approach you mention would require increasing dramatically the number of layers in my drawings.
aI also make use of Cut then Paste Through Layers at a different scale in order to change the scale of a drawing, perhaps to make it fit better on a page. Seems to me this would be way more complicated to do if the layers are all assigned scales. It would mean changing them all before doing the Paste Through Layers, whereas before it simply meant pulling down the drop-down scale menu, and voilá!
This seems to be a move towards the way some of the other CAD programs work, where you are obliged to set the scale for each layer. The flexibility of PC where you could change scale to suit your needs was nice (the "rotate the triangular rule" metaphor!). You of course can still do that, though you have to open the Drawing Setup to change scale (or even see what scale you are drawing at!).
It seems to me that simply having a pull-down scale menu in the window toolbar (as was previously in the Status Window) would be a nice feature, and enable everyone to work the way they want.
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huc
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 660
Location: ::caddpower.com:: (Aurora, CO)
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: |
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I'm confused I guess -- which isn't unusual
I'm not suggesting having a scale for every layer in the drawing. The current model for PCD is simple and works.
Having to manually toggle back and forth in the Status Window to change layer scales -- which seems to be what you're describing -- requires remembering and resetting the scale every time I want to draw and that seems like extra work to me.
When working on a drawing -- I typically assign a drawing scale. This is the scale used for all work, and is the scale assigned when writing a dwg file. That scale applies to all layers, all content, unless I say otherwise so it means I don't have to think.
Layer scales are used to flag the exceptions to the primary drawing scale. Details are a classic example. The other classic example would be a drawing file containing details only (i.e. no specific scale required at the drawing level). Since I can have multiple line weights on a given layer, I can use Layer Scales. Organizing my layers by the particular scale of a detail drawing let's me have a layer titled "Details at 1:20" and put all details on that layer. I might have another layer titled "Details at 1:10", etc.. That approach can actually decrease the potential number of layers in a drawing. This model still let's me choose copy and Paste Special/At Scale if I'm moving content between layers or between drawings.
The Layer scale attribute setting lets me organize the content and I am immediately drawing to the correct scale when I make a given layer active. If I'm drawing on any layer which is does not have a layer scale I'm working at the drawing scale. For example I might be on a plan view layer and so I'm automatically drawing at the scale set in Drawing Setup/Units. I might switch layers to a detail, or section, or enlarged plan, and I'm immediately drawing at that scale because I have a layer scale set. I never need to manually switch scales -- I let PCD do that chore for me.
The Layer Window (which is typically open for most folks on a regular basis) gives me the visual feedback I need to know when I'm working on a layer which is at a non-drawing setup scale. The layer name in the drawing title bar also indicates that info if I have the layers window closed.
Sure, everyone works differently -- but I don't see how the current change in PCD8 has done anything to require nor make a move towards having a scale assigned for every layer. You can still set one drawing scale and have that scale apply to every layer. You can still set an exception by assigning a layer scale. None of that has changed.
Now, having the scale appear in the drawing window toolbar is an interesting suggestion and you might want to write it up and submit that to EngSW for consideration. But to confirm I did and would never recommend requiring a scale assigned per layer and I don't see how EngSW has moved down that path. That would be a horrible experience to manage.
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I hope that helps
Cheers
Brian |
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Greg
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 219
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for taking the time to explain your way of working Brian.
I no doubt carry some baggage from the old hand-drawing days, and seeing the scale displayed gave me some sense of security that I had the "ruler" rotated to the correct scale! I do however always work with the Layer window displayed, so can see the "exceptions".
I do think though that there is some value to having the scale displayed and have the ability to change it without going to the Drawing Setup.
It would also be nice if when you were on a layer which had an assigned scale that this assigned scale was displayed (other than just in the Layer window). This was not the case with the PC7 Status window. When you were on a layer with an assigned scale, the drop down menu would grey out (indicating that you couldn't change it) but the scale still stayed at the value for the entire drawing, not that assigned to the layer.
Thanks again...
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huc
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 660
Location: ::caddpower.com:: (Aurora, CO)
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Greg
I also come from a manual overlay draughting background  Level of comfort with seeing what the drawing scale is at I suppose is a relative one. After 18 years or more of using the product I guess I've just learned to trust that setting and now only want to see the exceptions to that. I was known on occasion to mix up my triangular scale and grabbed the wrong one but the problem (cause/effect) showed it ugly face quickly - much like it did/does in PCD
| Quote: | | It would also be nice if when you were on a layer which had an assigned scale that this assigned scale was displayed (other than just in the Layer window). |
The active layer name displayed a the top of the screen also displays a scale; but for layer scale settings only.
I'm not suggesting there's no value in seeing the drawing setup scale in the drawing ToolBar -- but that's a separate feature request that would need to be described and submitted directly to EngSW (don't count on them reading this forum to cull that sort of stuff from the wide range of posts)
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I hope that helps
Cheers
Brian |
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Peter Severin Carlsen
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 80
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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What, they've made it more difficult to change scales in a single drawing. Not good.
We don't all work the same. I often have parts of the drawings at different scales. My drawings are assemblages of this and that. And if PC8 makes it more difficult to switch between them...I don't see that as an improvement. There was a directness to having it there in the status window, where I can change it quickly and directly.
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Peter Carlsen |
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huc
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 660
Location: ::caddpower.com:: (Aurora, CO)
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Severin Carlsen wrote: | What, they've made it more difficult to change scales in a single drawing. Not good.
We don't all work the same. I often have parts of the drawings at different scales. My drawings are assemblages of this and that. And if PC8 makes it more difficult to switch between them...I don't see that as an improvement. There was a directness to having it there in the status window, where I can change it quickly and directly. |
| huc wrote: | | Sure, everyone works differently ... I'm not suggesting there's no value in seeing the drawing setup scale in the drawing ToolBar -- but that's a separate feature request that would need to be described and submitted directly to EngSW (don't count on them reading this forum to cull that sort of stuff from the wide range of posts) |
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pbacot
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 856
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Maybe we need to go back to earlier solutions. Prior to the status window (and larger monitors). I assigned QuicKeys macros to change the scale by key stroke (PowerCADD was set up, and possibly still is, such that this required a "record" style macro).Of course this doesn't give you a heads up on the current scale, just a faster way to change it.
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Peter B |
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jasonlocher
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 614
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| pbacot wrote: | | Maybe we need to go back to earlier solutions. Prior to the status window (and larger monitors). I assigned QuicKeys macros to change the scale by key stroke (PowerCADD was set up, and possibly still is, such that this required a "record" style macro).Of course this doesn't give you a heads up on the current scale, just a faster way to change it. |
or the ability to add this and other features to the blossom pallete
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CJH
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Reading these posts, I realized that I have gradually-not intentionally, just evolved as a better work flow, to use the layer scales almost exclusively. Typically I set the overall file scale to what plans are drawn at (1/8" or 1/4"). All plan linework is on identified layers (walls, floors, beams, etc.) then for each sheet settup there is a 'text' layer which sits topmost in the layer stack: this layer contains the text for that sheet and any details on that sheet, with the scale for the details (usually 3/4") set for that 'text' layer using the layer scale. The benefit of this is two-fold: First, when drawing I no longer need to change the scale if I'm drawing on the 1/4" plans or 3/4" details, it changes automatically depending on what layer I'm drawing on. Second, when I need to scale a plan, I just make one of the plan layers the active one and the scale is correct, go back to the details on 'text' and the scale is automatically reset. This is especially nice when contractors call and need a dimension.
So in retrospect, I realized I really no longer needed the Status pallet. I do think it would be good to have the overall file scale shown somewhere though.
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huc
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 660
Location: ::caddpower.com:: (Aurora, CO)
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| CJH wrote: | | ... I realized that I have gradually-not intentionally, just evolved as a better work flow, to use the layer scales almost exclusively. Typically I set the overall file scale to what plans are drawn at (1/8" or 1/4"). ... The benefit of this is two-fold: First, when drawing I no longer need to change the scale if I'm drawing on the 1/4" plans or 3/4" details, it changes automatically depending on what layer I'm drawing on. Second, when I need to scale a plan, I just make one of the plan layers the active one and the scale is correct, go back to the details on 'text' and the scale is automatically reset. |
Welcome to my world
Same basic approach - I use a Details layer instead of a Text Layer - but the trick is the same. Let PCD do the thinking and just switch with a click on the fly.
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I hope that helps
Cheers
Brian |
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Greg
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 219
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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One more point concerning display of the drawing scale. I just imported a dwg drawing using PC8. Went extremely smoothly by the way!
I inadvertently forgot to check "Set scale", therefore the drawing was imported at an odd scale. However, because the scale is not displayed anywhere, I didn't know what it was. Opening up the Drawing Setup shows me the scale as "User Scale". Thus no way of determining what the scale.
Opened the drawing in PC7, where the scale is displayed to get the value.
I guess one more reason why a display of the scale would be helpful.
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huc
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 660
Location: ::caddpower.com:: (Aurora, CO)
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Greg
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 219
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Brian, I should have spent a little more time looking!
These posts certainly demonstrate that we all have found our preferred method for laying out our drawings.
Sometimes I lay out drawings with layers based primarily on line weights (heavy, medium, light, dash, etc.). Other times I find that it is more useful, often with details, to lay them out by components (steel, membrane, vapour barrier, wood, etc.), allowing me to easily turn elements on and off.
I tend not to mix line weights on a single layer so that it is easy to adjust the weights at printing time if for visual reasons line weights need tweeking. I know that this can be done on a single layer using Magic Wand tool or other selection discrimination techniques, but I find keeping them organized by layer (and colour) makes for greater flexibility.
If I have multiple scales on a drawing, I would usually have many layers at each scale. When working on a detail at a different scale than the main drawing scale, rather than setting the scale of each layer (as some users do), I prefer simply to "rotate my rule" by changing the scale.
This is why the absence of the scale display in PC v8 is annoying to me. I can no longer quickly see what scale I am working at, and to change it requires opening the Drawing Setup.
To repeat again, it seems like an easy fix which would accommodate users different ways of working would be to have the option to place the scale in the Drawing Toolbar. I've sent an email request to ES, and hoping it may be considered.
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