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pbacot
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 959
Location: Northern California
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 Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As for this forum being quiet, one reason is that the reliability of the software is through the roof. All crashes are sent automatically to a server and then analyzed with the crash log. |
Or it could be no one is taking up PowerCADD and long time users are frustrated.
Go over to the Sketchucation forum. That forum is not about bugs. It's about people learning, teaching, sharing projects, and developing software. You've already expressed your position, Alfred. And it's understandable. Consequenty, there's no reason to talk about WT, because nothing new will be happening.
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Peter B |
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Matt
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 525
Location: Sterling, Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| The lack of activity here could mean that we've just exhausted our ability to keep asking for simple things in the software to be fixed. PowerCADD is far from perfected, but my energy is going to other things now. |
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pbacot
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 959
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Matt wrote: | | It is foolishness to create a three dimensional model and then slice it into traditional "working drawings". When that second step is eliminated I'll be interested in exploring BIM. |
Matt-- I think they would argue that the software does that second step for you. I'm with you guys. But I am not working for aerospace and Gehry, after all. I just make drawings of smaller buildings. Three stories at the most.
Not only is the end not known when you start, the design isn't complete until the building is built. Drawings are more than a model of the building. I just think there are so many pressures on design firms' work. You must inspire and elucidate certainly, but documentation has different needs for the owner, builder, building official, state, and lawyers etc. New issues must be addressed on drawings every year. Now BIM is tending to make the draftsman a bean counter for the AEC industry, and one is expected to add these capabilities at one's own expense. Certainly applications like energy analysis are not trivial, but that's only a part of the growing complexity.
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Peter B |
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Matt
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 525
Location: Sterling, Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| Why do the second step? If the "digital integration" doesn't extend to the job site, it's going to break. |
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GaryV
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 282
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| The other argument for their software, as quoted by the likes of the Revit marketing team, is that the entire design and construction team can all communicate together over the model and work out the conflicts together. Right! I do not know about all you but I do not know any GCs that will take the time or money to buy or learn the software (and I would not blame them). Our industry is just not set up to have some Superintendent or Project Manager on the job and his subs huddled around a monitor reviewing a model to decide whether the architect erred (although supposedly it reduces errors but I doubt it) or if the framer or sheet metal guy has an issue to resolve. It just ain't going to happen except perhaps in very high end, high profit work. |
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pbacot
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 959
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| pbacot wrote: |
Or it could be no one is taking up PowerCADD and long time users are frustrated. |
Alfred et. al.
I hate being negative. Sometimes things just come out this way. I often read the posts here and refrain from responding. I guess I am disappointed in some things. but
I CONTINUE TO USE POWERCADD AND WILDTOOLS EVERYDAY AND DO, INDEED ENJOY IT. IT IS A MAJOR PART OF MY WORK AND HAS REALLY HELPED ME.
I hope you all have a Fruitful and Happy New Year.
Sincerely,
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Peter B |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| GaryV wrote: | | The other argument for their software, as quoted by the likes of the Revit marketing team, is that the entire design and construction team can all communicate together over the model and work out the conflicts together. Right! I do not know about all you but I do not know any GCs that will take the time or money to buy or learn the software (and I would not blame them). Our industry is just not set up to have some Superintendent or Project Manager on the job and his subs huddled around a monitor reviewing a model to decide whether the architect erred (although supposedly it reduces errors but I doubt it) or if the framer or sheet metal guy has an issue to resolve. It just ain't going to happen except perhaps in very high end, high profit work. |
I thought the same thing. The contractors working on my projects don't even own ACAD light and the German Baptist guys don't even own a computer 
I am of the opinion that BIM is suitable for BIG projects. The three people at the roundtable, including the contractor, are doing projects in the $20 million and above nature. So they can absorb BIM. The contractor is large enough to actually have a CAD group
| pbacot wrote: | | pbacot wrote: |
Or it could be no one is taking up PowerCADD and long time users are frustrated. |
Alfred et. al.
I hate being negative. Sometimes things just come out this way. I often read the posts here and refrain from responding. I guess I am disappointed in some things. but
I CONTINUE TO USE POWERCADD AND WILDTOOLS EVERYDAY AND DO, INDEED ENJOY IT. IT IS A MAJOR PART OF MY WORK AND HAS REALLY HELPED ME.
I hope you all have a Fruitful and Happy New Year.
Sincerely, |
Peter - I think we all feel your pain. I too will continue to use PC. I don't care what the program is..... there is always something we would like to see in it... but then there is someone else who does not want that feature. Even if there IS a time when I have to migrate to another program, I know it will not meet all of my expectations. However in the long run.... PowerCadd does great things for me and I want to see its continued success.
I did check out the PC forum at Architosh ..... talk about inactive and some negative feelings about PC..... I though about shooting myself.
Again.... Bill - if you are reading, which we know you are..... start thinking BIM.... and maybe start thinking about a license support fee if it means the continued success of PowerCadd. I understand 15% is typically. You know.... I would gladly pay $150 each year to have better support (not that it is bad - but maybe your staff becomes a little more active on this forum) and provide some R/D money for a major engine in my firm.
BTW - Does anyone know what the numbers are for PC (number of licenses - users - market share.... stuff like that). Alfred - do you know this information - who you be willing to share it? |
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raleighross
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 393
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| phansford wrote: | | Again.... Bill - if you are reading, which we know you are..... start thinking BIM.... |
I can't imagine BIM without 3D. End to end. Not 3D to 2D then back again.
My opinion. |
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raleighross
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 393
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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I'll say it again.
If you change the nouns this entire discussion sounds like the discussion of moving from paper to 2D CAD 10 to 20 years ago.
Only for high end. Takes designing away from principals, contractors and subs don't do CAD, too much effort for the reward, etc... |
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Matt
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 525
Location: Sterling, Virginia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Making a mistake twice isn't necessarily a good thing.
When I include all the time I spend serving my computer software, hardware, and network, I can certainly not say that CAD saves time.
Since the adoption of CAD, I believe that the quality of the information, as well as it's presentation, on average, had declined for the industry; we produce less work, of lower quality, than we did in the past. In addition my documents are less accessible, and more vulnerable to corruption, then they were in the past.
Can you get your building department to accept and review electronic versions of your drawings? We're still slaves of paper.
It was true then and it's true now, in spades. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| raleighross wrote: | I'll say it again.
If you change the nouns this entire discussion sounds like the discussion of moving from paper to 2D CAD 10 to 20 years ago.
Only for high end. Takes designing away from principals, contractors and subs don't do CAD, too much effort for the reward, etc... |
Well sort of.....
The whole thing about CAD was we were going to be able to share information electronically not only with our sub-consultants, but with contractors. Having been doing projects in CAD for about 18 years.... I can count on one hand the number of times a contractor has requested a CAD file from us. It typically has been the fire sprinkler contractor or the HVAC contractor on a design/build. But is not the way or the amount we all thought.
So now comes BIM (which is basically building the design in 3D verses doing 2d drawings.... we all understand that part) who proponents say that the BIM model will move through all of the project teams hands... from architect to sub-consultant to the contractor and his suppliers then to the Owner (who will still not get a complete BIM Model at the end).
Based on past experience, I am not sure it will happen as it is touted. I don't see the average contractor adding to the model as intended.
I think its all interesting. One real concern for me is will my subconsultants - who are fairly large and are moving to BIM - be able to support me as I stay un-BIM. |
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PwdCAD Expert
Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| I guess i've seen both sides. I've used PowerCADD for 20+ years and also managed large teams of AutoCAD users. All the projects we designed and constructed were done using different types of BIM/CAD tools. I agree with a previous post that current BIM adoption sounds a bit like the the early days of 2D CAD vs. manual drafting discussions. I too have been skeptical about BIM use on smaller projects.. But I have recently turned the corner and see BIM/CAD as everyone's future. Products like Revit or ArchiCAD have developed into efficient solutions for any size office or project in my opinion. PowerCADD is a great product for us now.. but will it be the tool we use in five years? Will it interface and exchange information with the latest BIM products? I love to see a road map of where ES is planning on going with PowerCADD and how it fits into the BIM world we are definitely moving into. |
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pjmeli
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Mount Dora, FL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It is foolishness to create a three dimensional model and then slice it into traditional "working drawings". When that second step is eliminated I'll be interested in exploring BIM. |
Actually traditional "working drawings" are slices of a 3d model. Even the floor plan is a section drawing (I'm sure you already know that - just saying)
I've found it very useful to build quick 3d models of complex residential projects to help generate accurate sections and basic linework for elevations, etc. to be completed in PowerCadd.
It also helps in figuring out the underlying structure.
Paul |
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pbacot
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 959
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Paul,
What is your program? How does a 3d model help with the structure? Are you using a parametric (BIM) model that puts structural elements into the model--that you did not know about before? I certainly see improved visualization of form and proportion, regardless of how well I THINK I can grasp it before modeling. I suppose in modeling a complex new type of intersection, some elements can be figured out--is that what you mean?
General topic response:
(Matt, in particular)
I guess I will have to look at BIM software to understand how a builder could use a 3d model to get the appropriate information--without the architect cutting plans and sections and adding notes beforehand. Construction documents in my experience are really diagrams, they aren't recreations of reality. I would imagine the builder starting off by cutting a section or plan from the model...
A drawing is made to show specific elements. If instead, a model needed to be created whereby anywhere a builder, a plan checker, an owner looks, the required construction and specifications are easily obtained, e.g. the required edge nailing in a panel, (moreover the information is displayed without the viewer needing to ask for it)-- I guess I just can't imagine this as yet. Feels a bit like Star Trek (which is fine with me, I like beaming up).
(Ross)
If this really is a recreation of the old CAD discussion (I would argue: more like 25 years ago not 10), it's still worth discussing. CAD's been an ongoing evolution and learning process, whereas the nature of institutions and corporations is to take over the technology and prescribe how it will be used before it's grown. (I'm thinking universities, AIA and AutoDesk, "them")
(Phansford)
PC BIM--don't hold your breath.
Happy New Year!
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Peter B |
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pjmeli
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Mount Dora, FL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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pbacot,
I used to use Sketchup but now I use BoA.
I've found Boa to be far and away the easiest program to generate 3d models. Work is done typically in 3d space.
Unfortunately BoA seems to be dying on the vine with few improvements made over the last several years. It is only now becoming Intel-native.
Here in Central Florida the vast majority of house designs are done by Draftsmen-Designers. The Architect in our office does no design work, he just reviews/seals the plans and signs the checks.
Our designers have little overall knowledge of structure so it helps to have me (I'm an Engineer) guide them to minimize expensive structural conditions (value engineering I suppose) on the more complicated projects.
Although I'm not a designer it seems to me that showing a client a model in progress gives them a better idea of what their project is/will look like than only floor plans and elevations, and as the model matures the plans, sections and elevations change with the model. Plus I can use the model to generate structural details.
Essentially I build the house on the computer and work out the kinks leaving out the finer details that the Designer will eventually provide.
When the client finally signs off on the design the various drawings can be made from line-work exported from the model in a 2d drafting program.
Probably not for everyone but it works for our office and it's relatively cost effective on small-scale projects.
Paul[/u] |
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